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Hungry Dog Barbell Podcast
David Needham CrossFit Brave
Join us as we sit down with David Needham, the passionate owner of CrossFit Brave and CrossFit HSP, who takes us behind the scenes of the CrossFit Adaptive Games, hosted by WheelWod. David shares his pivotal role in athlete control and dispute management, offering rare insight into the challenges and triumphs of working with adaptive athletes. Their stories of resilience and gratitude light up David's mission to cultivate an inclusive fitness community, while shedding light on the long-overdue recognition of the adaptive division.
Dive into the entrepreneurial growth journey marked by mentorship, communication, and time management, as David navigates his dual roles in the fitness and firefighting worlds. Get ready for actionable insights and inspiring stories that will fuel your passion for growth and community.
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What's up, guys? This week I'm joined by David Needham, owner of both CrossFit Brave and CrossFit HSP. David comes on to talk about his experiences this summer at the CrossFit Adaptive Games presented by WheelWide, and also owning and co-owning two different gyms, and all the experiences that come along with that Tune in for a great episode that come along with that Tune in for a great episode.
Speaker 2:So specifically so. Wheelwad is the company that has always hosted the adaptive CrossFit games, or the adaptive the biggest competition you can for adaptive athletes and this year they were the partner with CrossFit to host the actual adaptive division, because before, just like we saw with the Masters and the adaptive athlete games, they didn't get as big a limelight as they should and I think crossfit kind of realized that they were doing them a disservice, so like, why not go to the company that does it the best and back them?
Speaker 1:yeah, for sure. So the information goes out that that's, that's, uh, that's coming out right that they're gonna be run by this organization. Um, when did you sign up? What made you? You sign up, like, tell me that story.
Speaker 2:So last year the WheelWatt Games was in Raleigh and a good friend of mine at another well, a good friend of mine now but a girl from another gym did a lot of the like setup and layout and things for it. She contacted another friend at a gym that was like, hey, we could use your help with the games this year. And my other friend was like, oh, you should reach out to David. He runs a really smooth competition at my gym, crossfit Brave. That always runs on time, Everybody loves it, everybody has a good time and they're really good on judging, so we get good hype there. And so she reached out. I helped with a little bit with like floor layout and give like the design of like. Here's where I think vendors should go and they should be positioned this way.
Speaker 2:And just volunteered my time last year. I did last year. I was head of disputes, so anybody that wanted to yell was yelling at me.
Speaker 1:Oh man, what a job.
Speaker 2:Right and pseudo score table stuff. So beyond that, I mean, I just helped out as much as I could with competition. And so this year I got invited back to go out to San Antonio and to have a bigger role in the actual organization. So this year I was the head of athlete control. I still did disputes, but basically my job was to corral athletes onto the floor, off the floor, if they had problems, they talk to me. I go talk to the people that are in all knowing powers, and then they would come back and I'd be like all right, here's your answer, it's bad news, it's good news, but here's the answer. So that was my role this year.
Speaker 1:Oh, man, and that's a vital person in these competitions. These competitions, like you know, because there's so many different moving pieces going on. Right, like you have the score people, you have the competition floor, people that are actually working on it, both athletes and judges out there, and maybe media, bigger comps like that. Right. Then you have like back of house stuff that's in between those two different things, right, so to have someone that kind of has to run between all of them, it's super, it's super big. Is that your your first? I know you said you run the competition over a brave and I and I want to talk specifically all about that stuff, like later on. But is that your first bigger cop experience or have you been to any of the other ones?
Speaker 2:No, no, so, um, so super cool to see when it was in madison, um, but that was my first, that's, you know, in the limelight of how big that actual competition is, that was the first one that I actually helped volunteer at nice so tell us some like of the highs, like your favorite takeaway from this experience, right like the adaptive championships yeah. So really it's meeting the athletes, because they have incredible stories that you're like you. You look at them and you're like I really have zero excuse not to work out.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like I'm able-bodied, right, I can move well, I've been doing CrossFit for many years but like they really embrace what CrossFit is and the community aspect of it and they're so appreciative, even when they, like you, got to tell them bad news and that was my, that was my job, right.
Speaker 2:Well, I had to come up to you and be like, hey, sorry, uh, your score got this and now you're down five places. But even in that, they were really thankful for just the opportunity and, like you know, you being there to support them, and that's how they felt it. It wasn't like I'm an athlete. You're here because I'm a high level athlete. They really liked the support that, like you gave to them, so that was the coolest part of it.
Speaker 1:That's awesome dude. So tell us, like, what are those parts of the job right when you like, like, had to be like damn, it's kind of the bad guy.
Speaker 2:Do you have any of those experiences you want to share? I had a few where I had to tell people like, hey, your score got changed because this was the standard. This was where the judge messed up, and this is like on video review kind of, where everything played out.
Speaker 1:And so most of the better.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I mean, most of them understood. I mean, sometimes it's a little heartbreaking. Most of their coaches were a little bit more upset than the actual athlete was Rightfully so. Right, because, I mean, you're a coach, you want to vouch for your athletes the best you can and you'll yell at whoever for them.
Speaker 1:I've been there, man. What about, like as someone that's been a longtime business owner, right, and that puts on their own competition, like even on a smaller scale? What are some things that you want to see for next year, Like as people that you work with, as far as the event goes?
Speaker 2:So for me, spatial layout and vendors, and so I think we could have moved around the floor a little bit to give athletes a little bit better experience and to give vendors a better vendor village I mean, it was the first time being in a new venue, so you're always always rough on that but that would be something that would be a little bit better. We just it was a big learning experience and you got to think we award the year before had like a hundred athletes and this year they had 300 athletes. Wow, so you're tripling your competition basically overnight. It's just it's always hard to manage. We ran a super amazing competition for not not the unknowing of 300 athletes right, right, right, and especially with the first, like big shot at it too.
Speaker 1:Where was it? Last year? Was it raleigh? But where? What was the venue?
Speaker 2:uh, the venue was actually in, uh, the fairground, so there was um like a big yeah. Yeah, I don't want to say it's a barn, but, like you know, an indoor space. That uh was the venue yeah, and this year was at like more of a coliseum type place in san antonio yeah, I saw the one this year.
Speaker 1:Like I watched a couple of the events and stuff and then obviously saw the media coverage afterwards. But then I now that you said fairgrounds, I remember that name going around, you know, because I follow will what I took my the adaptive course two years ago. You know the ata, yeah, yeah, nice, um, nice, so it was a good one. So, dude, take me back, man, like, what's your sports background? Like, like, tell me about your exercise level before CrossFit.
Speaker 2:Gotcha, yeah, I was a super great athlete. I really wasn't. I ran I was Michael Phelps. Right? No, no, I was not. I was maybe like Michael Phelps is like stunt double, right? No, I ran cross country and I played basketball. I ended up choosing basketball to play at the collegiate level. I played D3 basketball. So, let's you know, not write home about any of my athletes.
Speaker 1:That's where the fun's at, though Don't let anyone tell you any different.
Speaker 2:Well, we had a lot of fun. After a couple of years just wasn't the right fit for me. I moved back to Texas, where I'm originally from.
Speaker 1:I was going to say where were you living at then? So you were born in Texas, when were you living at like high school time and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So high school I spent half the time in Texas, and then I lived in Florida for two years to try to get a better athletic scholarship out there. I ended up playing basketball in upstate New York at a small school called Elmira College, and then, after a couple of years back to Texas, finished my degree at Sam Houston State. I had not been in the CrossFit space yet, but I did get my online rinky-dink personal trainer certification.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I ran some group fitness classes and I did some one-on-one training but, like, not at anywhere near the level that I'm at now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, why were you doing that stuff? Was that just like one of those part-time jobs? Or did you have like an influence in your life to like make you know about training, want to train other people?
Speaker 2:Not so much. So at a young age my mom was really big into the gym and I always had to be the kid sitting at the little baby gate watching her lift and I was like I could do all that.
Speaker 2:And I'd always been like that. So weightlifting and fitness had always been a part of that and I thought, well, I can transfer some of the knowledge that I've learned through a lot of trainers that I've had into helping other people. I got the certification. I ran some courses Realistically, like I was doing CrossFit style things, but not CrossFit, because I didn't really know what CrossFit was at the time.
Speaker 1:So yeah, crossfit is just anything, especially then and now. It's never changed. It's just been any kind of like mishmash of hard stuff. You know, we talk about the methodology. We could have that conversation later on but so where was your head at as far as, like, what you want to do with your life? Did you have any direction then, like when you were in college, wrapping up college and all that stuff?
Speaker 2:I had no idea what I wanted to do, but I did know that my goal was five years out of school I wanted to be able to make six figures a year, which did not happen. But so I got a criminal justice psychology double major degree. I wanted to be in law enforcement. I met a guy that was like hey, why don't you try firefighting? And I was like why don't you try firefighting? And I was like why don't you love your job? And he was like I do, he goes, but I'm at the top he was like I'm not getting into this now.
Speaker 2:He goes.
Speaker 1:Think of it this way he goes firefighter that he was working in law enforcement, that guy they give you that it was like all right, so switch over.
Speaker 2:That's what he was kind of telling you yeah, he was one of the head of uh, the like texas blood and alcohol, um, like that portion of of the job, and he was like here's the three things he was like one you work half the number of days because firefighters work 24 hour days instead of 12. You make about the same pay. And the third one he goes, nobody you.
Speaker 1:I heard a firefighter I had a firefighter on here make that joke before too Like nobody hates the firefighters and it's like a very similar job. So did you make the switch over?
Speaker 2:So I did so out of college. I actually did sales for about three years and then I moved to North Carolina, which is where I'm currently at. I got a sales job because I applied to several fire departments and got put on the wait list and then a year later, I got into the fire department. The training when you're a full-time person is immediate and upfront, and so when I got hired on, we had a six-month academy, which could have been eight months, with some extra certifications that we needed, but at six months it was eight to five. You had to get all these certifications in order to qualify to kind of be paid full-time For volunteers. They get that same training, but they've got to go to it themselves. They usually get it over time and it's kind of like a if I can go, if I can help, great. If I can't, I can't. For me. I'm there, it's my job. I live there 24 hours a day, and when I'm off, I'm off, and when my day's back on, I'm there and I'm back on and I live there.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah, that's dope. So that's big cities have more full-time firefighters and stuff, and then your small towns can have volunteer forces with a couple of full-time firefighters and stuff, and then your small towns can have volunteer forces, you know, with a couple of full-time people on it. So tell us about that, the beginning of that experience. Right, like you, you go through all your training, certifications, you finally become full-time, like what's your first year like?
Speaker 2:So my first year I was in downtown Durham, which is where I work, and I was on one of the busier trucks in the city. It was wild to learn, because I'm I'm a little, I was a little bit older when I started, so I was 27 and I so I'm not like a kid, but I'm still a kid to all these guys that are like 30 and 40 and 50, that are in the department and it's like you know I'm at 27. You think?
Speaker 1:you're, you think you're so old, and then all the older dudes are like dude what yeah?
Speaker 2:They're like I've been here for 20 years. I'm like, golly, you're old, but basically you're the new guy, right? So you make coffee. You try to do everything that you possibly can to learn as much as you can. The one thing that I would suggest to all newer firefighters and new in any job is ask more questions, even if you think that's a dumb question. It might not be dumb to you, but ask more questions, and I tried to. Not, I didn't ask as many questions as I wish I would have and, looking back, like I ask way more questions now, nine years into it, than I ever did. And now people don't you know cause.
Speaker 2:I'm not the new guy. It's not like, oh, this is the dumb kid just asking questions Right now. It's kind of like, oh well, you know, they just kind of let it slide because of my experience level, but it was, you know, wild. I mean, we got up to you know two, three times a night. We went to everything from car wrecks to gas leaks, to gunshot wounds, to fires, to your normal everyday old lady that you know fell out of a chair little cat stuck in a tree, kind of thing well you know, if I'm getting a cat out of a tree, it's a mountain lion oh damn, that's crazy, bro, but I love what you just said.
Speaker 1:Man, hindsight's like 2020. Right, you know you, you look back. There's like some quote that says, like that, only the novice is scared of being a novice. You know, when you're, when you're first starting off, like when you're deep into it, you're like I want to learn, I want to soak it all up, right, like that's what matters to you, you know. So tell us, what was your, your fitness level like at the time and how did that coincide with you being a firefighter? Like, were you above expectations? Were you just at the required like level of fitness you needed? How do you feel about it now versus how you felt about it back then? Tell us all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so early on I would say I was. I was three years into my CrossFitting career, so I was in great shape for a lighter guy. So early in my CrossFit career I was maybe 170 pounds at 6'1", so lighter, didn't lift a bunch of weights growing up, so I was still on the lighter lifting side. But my cardio was fantastic and for us we wear respirators. So the longer you can last on a bottle, the better you are.
Speaker 2:And not everybody and I wish it were different, but not everybody in the fire service in these physical fitness careers takes their fitness to the level that potentially it should be because of our ability to do life-saving things right.
Speaker 2:So there are people that have kind of let themselves slide and I was fortunate to be at a great station with a group of people that were like hey, we're circuit training every day, we're going into lift every day and so really fortunate on that, because not everybody in the service kind of keeps that and I'm I'm the guy bopping around the station hey, you want to work out, you want to work out, you want to work out.
Speaker 2:And not everybody takes me up on that, which is fine, you know, to each their own, Um, but my fitness level has stayed pretty consistent through a few injuries that I've had Um and now I'm 210 pounds. I move well. I still breathe well on a respirator. So like now I think I'm a little bit more in the middle grounds where like hey, you need me to blow down this door, I can. You need me to carry this heavy person, I can. You need me to last longer than most people on an air bottle, I can. So I think CrossFit is a huge benefactor for that and I would highly recommend it to most firefighters I mean, that's the sweet spot, right where you can do all those things.
Speaker 1:You know, work capacity is truly what it boils down to. Um, what I was hearing is like you have the you can knock down a door and you can go up and down two flights of stairs multiple times if you need to to help multiple people get out. You know, um like take, take them down that path. So how do you find crossfit? When did that first come into your life?
Speaker 2:crossfit. Uh found me towards the end of college so I have a best friend. He was into crossfit. He's been to regionals. He's a phenomenal athlete. He's had millions of abs ever since I've known right millions of abs millions of of abs, right. So I met this guy in college. His name's Kanoa. He actually we co-own a gym together and he basically was like you should try CrossFit. And I was like CrossFit is such glorified circuit training, blah blah blah.
Speaker 2:And he goes, why don't you come down and watch my competition? And I was like okay, didn't know anything about it. What I didn't know is I was going to watch him in one of the biggest competitions in the houston area. Yeah, like, get down there walking around a bunch of fit people you know girls in like sports bras and booty shorts and I'm like what is this? This is kind of cool and it was right. It was outside at a giant nutrition store where they had like supplements and everything so I go in the store and walk around, I meet this guy.
Speaker 2:He's 5'8, he's sponsored by bsn. I was like, oh cool, little short jack guy. No pictures, no, nothing.
Speaker 1:I mean I met rich froning that day oh my god, I was like who could it be? You know that's funny yeah, literally met.
Speaker 2:The guy shook his hand, walked off, whatever uh, no idea.
Speaker 1:Back to the girls with booty shorts and stuff like that, you know, back back to, well, back to watching you know him compete.
Speaker 2:And, um, his team got seventh, which I was like okay, like y'all pretty good, didn't know that like three out of the four people that were regional athletes on his team, right, so wild competition. And I was like I could do all that stuff because him and I were competitive in college. And he's like, oh, just come work out with me, it'll be fine yeah so I did uh, we did did some things. Couldn't figure out how to overhead squat with the bar, like just couldn't get it in the right placement.
Speaker 1:So your intro was like competitive style, like you didn't go to a class first, you went and worked out with your buddy, right, yep, and we did a 12-minute AMRAP and I was like I'll pick my weight and go at his speed.
Speaker 2:And I did for seven minutes and at minute seven I'd go outside as fast as I can find a storm drain and I puked everything that I had into that drain, everything that's hilarious, oh day one, day one yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2:Came back in kind of like got my bearings about we had he did some accessory stuff at the end and I was like man, this is kind of fun. Like about we had he did some accessory stuff at the end and I was like man, this is kind of fun. Like, yeah, this is so. This is so challenging that it's like fun and that's really what got me into crossfit. So started crossfit started at a really small gym, like 1800 square feet total size of the gym, including bathrooms and the entry table. Um, after a year, you know, I was out of college working a very mundane job and I was like how do I not pay for crossfit anymore? And the guy was like, oh well, if you became a coach because you were a personal trainer, then your membership's free and you just coach for your membership. And I was like perfect. So I started saving money and I went and got my level one certification you know what year that was uh, it was 2012 oh, hell, yeah, oh gee.
Speaker 1:Uh, also I wanted to ask do you remember the workout? Like you said, it was a 12 minute amrap. Do you remember, like, what the moves were?
Speaker 2:no, it had something to do with kettlebells. I want to say it was like swings and goblet squats and something else, but I was just. I went full ham for seven minutes.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah, absolutely Send it. I love that.
Speaker 2:Yep, it was not smart.
Speaker 1:I did not. I didn't throw up in a workout for like a while. I think into into my CrossFit 10 year career. I think I think the one that really sticks out in my mind that made me puke was I did a was it 20, 15, 10 or like 21, 15, nine, something like that of of rower calories and burpees over the rower and yeah, it really like I was like dry heaving too like you know, like throwing up nothing. So that was that really. That really hurt my soul. That was really bad CrossFit does that to you, man?
Speaker 2:Most workouts don't make me want to dry heave. There's a lot of like not being able to stand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and then-. Delirious kind of vibe.
Speaker 2:Early on when, like the assault bike was a thing, I did a partner competition that had it was partner. It was like it was thrusters, bar over burpees and assault bike cows and it was 21, 18, 15, 12, nine, all the way down and our split it was a co-ed and our split was we were going to split the burpees, she was going to do most thrusters and then I was going to do some of the thrusters and bike and I went to the bike last in a heat of 12 and I got off first.
Speaker 2:Oh, man, I was like I'm crushing this and then I go back for 18. And I just remember going as hard as I could and getting off there and be like, okay, that was quite worse. And then when I went for 15, I hammered 15. And like everybody's behind me is like go run, and I got off there Like I was like a drunk baby waddle oh, man right down on the floor, been there it was tough times. Everything I could do to like walk 50 feet tough sales right there, bro.
Speaker 1:But so tell us about, like, your first year of coaching.
Speaker 2:You know, like use your brain now to like kind of review your first year of coaching well, so so I started let me let me preface by I started crossfit in 2012, I started shadow coaching in like 2013 or so. Um, and it was weird because, like, you're now coaching your peers that you compete with, and so I was really timid to tell anybody anything, even though I could see everything, and because, like, these are the guys that are better than me, they're faster than me, they lift more than me, and I was like I really struggled with the like getting out of my comfort zone to tell them like, hey, you know, you didn't do this, your, your hips didn't open, you need to jump more. Right, you missed triple extension completely. And so that was the biggest hurdle, I think for newer coaches is to go to the experienced and the older athletes and to say, hey, you're not good at this, right, in the nice coaching manner. Right, hey, this is what I saw.
Speaker 2:Now, 11 years later, I like beg for coaches to tell me what I do wrong. Right, it's so tough, dude, because now I'm experienced and I have certifications that people don't. So because of that, they don't want to coach me, because they don't want to like they don't want me to say something like maybe make them feel dumb or like, oh, I'm above them, which is totally not the case at all. Right, I want to be coached like everybody else in every class that I do.
Speaker 1:That's the backbone of like why we do CrossFit and keep going and going. You know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that was the hardest part for me. And then, like, I really liked the programming side. But I got into programming based upon like what can David do, not, what can everybody do? And so I moved to North Carolina and in my year two of coaching I coached for a really good gym owner that had done CrossFit for quite a while. His name's Jack Wiggin.
Speaker 2:Super appreciate that guy because he kind of set me up for success and he was like just coach, he goes, just program Saturdays for us. And I was like, okay, and I'd program stuff. And he'd be like okay, how fast do you think like Susie can do that? And in my head I'm like, okay, susie's a foundations athlete, right? Not, she won't be able to do this workout. And he was like, exactly so, figure out how to make a workout that is hard enough for you and easy enough for Susie to complete. So everybody's successful, right? That really started to get the balls turning on like, oh, okay, like maybe I have looked at this from a different perspective, just based upon my own ability, which for some people, right, is above. For others it's not even close, right.
Speaker 1:It's hard to mesh that together right Like what? Finding that simple, this that could make a workout like difficult. You know, it's like not just a softball pitch right for people, but it's going to challenge everyone. But back to that. That's what they talk about in level one course. This is how we really get it done. This is what the lifeblood of the methodology is all about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's harder to learn that until you're in a higher level position, when you're not just an early on coach.
Speaker 1:For sure. When you're not just an early on coach For sure, like when you have a little bit more buying into the game, you know, like when you're doing a little bit more than just watching these same 12 people move a week in your one class, you know you could get a higher up view of everything. Your POV changes. So where does it come in that you want to open a gym and did you does, like your parents have a small business or anything like that? Do you have any prior experience or mentors to help you through that?
Speaker 2:So parents-wise. So my father is an incredibly smart guy. He's a computer programmer, started his own company. I was lucky enough to work for him for a couple of summers, so it was a really nice paying summer job. I don't think I appreciated it as much as I should now, but like I got to do payroll, I got to do sales. I like learned some programming, which makes me a little bit dangerous in HTML, but like that's it.
Speaker 2:And I appreciate it now because now I can go through and like, edit my website Right, because I've learned some HTML.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I think that's so cool. Like those, those like experiences. You don't even think about how they play a factor into what you do later on in life. You know and set you up. I love hearing stories like that about people you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, other than that, my mom hardest worker that I know and I try to emulate that. So what happened is I moved here, coached for Bull City for two years, which took me past my first year of firefighting, and then I got the opportunity by the two guys that own Bull City. They're like hey, we're going to buy another gym. We want you to be the head coach because of firefighting, I had a lot of free time. We want you to be the head coach because of firefighting, I had a lot of free time. And the last year that I coached for Jack I think I coached like 400 classes in a year or something like that. He had a kid.
Speaker 1:Before you keep going. What year is this from? Like 15, 16, somewhere around there.
Speaker 2:This was 2015. Okay, sweet.
Speaker 2:So yeah. So I was like, hey, I was like Jack, I was like, give me all these hours. This is my part time job. I don't make much money as a firefighter. And he was like, yeah, I'll give you all the classes. It helped because, like he had a kid, so just kind of everything worked out, and so I think I was number three in line for them to ask if I wanted to be a head coach, which, like the people that they asked in front of me, way better choices at the time. Right, one of them was on seminar staff.
Speaker 1:So way phenomenal better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, easy pick above me right At the time I had just set my level one. I had only been coaching for like two years, three years, so you know, not a rough pick, but to me. I looked at it and I was like, okay, I can take the money that I make now and multiply it by five and run a gym. I've always wanted to own my own gym, right. And so I was like of course I'm going to jump on this option, so they give me the opportunity. I became a head coach. I took over a gym, so we didn't start one from scratch, but I took over one. And it's wild because, like in all the numbers of getting a gym like my numbers are here, they're actually here and then they go down to here in the first year because most of the members are loyal to the old owner and if it's not a big, smooth gym, like it's very hard to transition. So we went down some members, up some members, and so I kind of got it back to the even kill market year one. At the end of year one we kind of had this sit down and they were like, hey, we're going this direction. You're either on board with it or you're not. And I was like I'm in, you know, like I live down by the gym that I, that I own. Now I was like I've moved my life, so I'm in, I'm in Right, and they and they continue to take a chance on me.
Speaker 2:And so then, after another year, they had gotten to a point where they were like, hey, we're going to sell the gym and I had no zero about business. And so I asked a really good buddy of mine. I was like, hey, you're in a business. And so I asked a really good buddy of mine. I was like, hey, you're in a business, can you coach me through this or help me through this? And he was like, what do you need? And when I told him what I needed, he was like I'm going to give you some honest stuff which, like I think you might be a little bit deep in.
Speaker 2:And it basically came down to I asked him to be my business partner and we went into the business together and then we owned the gym for three years. Towards the end of that third year, now we're talking CrossFit Brave, five years in, like we had now. We had now moved locations, the pandemic was around the same time, like we had survived a lot of stuff right time, like we had survived a lot of stuff right I got an opportunity into a second location. And so when I went into the second location with the guy that gave me the opportunity you know it was it was then time where, like now, I'm a part of two different ownerships and I think my old business partner knew that and he was like look, it's totally cool You're going to do this.
Speaker 2:Let's figure out a way to make this all you and I was like it's solo yep. So uh, in, in like three months, I negotiated a deal to to buy this other gym. I negotiated the deal with my old business partner and now I had two gyms and I was the sole owner across CrossFit Brave. How far apart is the second gym from Brave? It's about 20 minutes, so it's in a whole separate town.
Speaker 1:So like CrossFit Brave is in Cary and CrossFit HSP is in Holly Springs. You've got some of the dumbest emails I've ever had and that's happening. That's awesome, brother. So before we start talking specifically about both gyms, man, tell me about, like that stint as just the head coach, where someone else still owns it. Like what were your responsibilities? What are some things that you felt like you crushed? What are some things that you felt like you learned about yourself in that time period to like make yourself better for later on?
Speaker 2:So in the early years I was the head coach that owned some. I had some ownership in it, but I basically did everything. I answered all the emails, I did programming, I cleaned the gym, I fixed up the gym. I basically was they were. They gave me the freedom to make it my own and I super appreciate that, because it was like now I get to put my personality, my spin, my ownership, onto this space, even though I was a little bitty owner in the group Right, and that was super beneficial. Again, though, right what I didn't do was go back to them who owned successful, successful boxes and been like hey guys, I need help. Here's what I need specific help on. I didn't do that because I wanted to do it all. I was so gung ho to do it all on my own with no help that it just it clouds your decision to get real mentorship sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally hear that. So then, how do things start to change for you and how do you get that help as you become the owner of the gym yourself?
Speaker 2:so year two, I asked more questions, right, and I had back to that reaching back out to them. Year three to five was when I had a business partner, which is the one we bought him out and I asked him a ton more questions and he gave me good answers but also the like go seek these answers out to yourself. And from transitioning to that into sole ownership, when it became time that to do everything on my shoulders, it was like man, I need to go, I need to go full study what I'm doing. And uh, I asked other people questions that own businesses. I was like, hey, who do you recommend, who do you use for this? What are you doing here? Got pointed in some good directions of like a really good CPA, a really good bookkeeper, and was able to ask all the questions that I needed then. Because now I'm like it's up to me. I don't have help, I don't have a partner to fall back on, this thing that is my primary moneymaker. I've got to figure out how to do.
Speaker 1:How are you balancing that with being a firefighter at that time?
Speaker 2:So at the time I actually had been moved to a more slower station had been moved to a more slower station. So that helped a little bit in the times that I had. You know, everybody sits on their phone. For a while at the fire station I was listening, learning anything I could about business at the time. You know, if I went and worked out and no one worked out with me, I'm popping in my headphones and I'm swiping through anything I can suck in as far as business information.
Speaker 1:I hear that, like what were some of those resources you were going to like besides your friend, do you have any like books, authors, podcasters, like just speakers that you went to a whole lot, so podcasters was one of the big things that I listened to, because I learned primarily through listening.
Speaker 2:Even when I like read contracts, now if I can get somebody to read it to me while I'm reading, I get it much better Best hour of their day. They were not kind of starting out, but they had kind of been getting their stuff built up. I listened to the Real AF with Andy Fraschella, the guy that owns First Form Supplement Company. His earlier stuff was all about business and that gave me a lot of the little things that I needed. That it was like you know, like every day is hard, like if you feel like you're constantly drowning, like you're doing the right thing, you know and I was just like oh, my God, that's how I feel, right, right, so a lot of those things.
Speaker 2:And then I listened to a guy by the name of Brandon Carter. He's in the fitness space. He's kind of an influencer online just about some of his business practices, how he manages money, and so a few of them. I've read countless business books good, bad, a rich, rich dad, poor dad you know you read all these books that people recommend, the 48 laws of power that's one that I've been working on getting through, and so you read these books and a lot of it really is like how to communicate and how to get your people bought in on what your vision is and to give your people freedom to tell you their vision and take their vision and mold it into what makes the community the best.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So, like you're a pretty good communicator, now you know, like, in what you do and obviously you studied that and tried to hone in on that Did you like have any of those skills naturally before? Like you got into business ownership or even CrossFit coaching? Like, did that kind of come naturally to you?
Speaker 2:I would say if you want to be an entrepreneur, take a very, very shitty sales job. Want to be an entrepreneur, take a very, very shitty sales job and it will make you great at asking people for things that you may not 100% support.
Speaker 1:For sure. Like I remember that part of your story early on and I was like that's like people that get into these kinds of roles that never had that timeline. It's's gonna be really tough for them. You know, like I worked in retail management, both as an operations person, like who just like sorted through the freight. Then I got promoted to management, like overnight the management during the daytime, like working with different people, so those skills and then working at lifetime corporate kind of wellness, where you're we work with people that are in town on business for 14 days and they want a trainer for eight of them, stuff like that, and the grandmom that's willing to buy packages for the next eight months if you can provide her with a service, stuff like that. Learning those kind of sales and turnovers is super important in these kinds of jobs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then what happens is then you sell something you like right, right and that you believe in, and you're like, oh, this is so much easier to sell this because I believe in it. I do it and just do exactly what I'm telling you to do, because I'm also doing it. So it's super easy that way.
Speaker 1:For sure. So, first of all, social media is all sales. Right now, that's all you're doing is marketing stuff, whether you're just marketing your life, telling people what it's like you're marketing a specific product. I say that to say for people out there that want to be coaches or business owners. Like practice selling things you don't believe in. Or like like you don't even have to release it to people. Like literally set up a camera and like do a spiel right. Like selling a product that you don't believe in.
Speaker 1:So then, like that's how you develop the ease of doing it naturally to to sell whatever product you do believe in. You know, like, oh, I would agree the shit that I hate. I could struggle my way through talking about this for two minutes and this thing that that I love, I can talk to you all day about it. You know, it becomes easy like that. That also helps you to talk about yourself, because as a podcaster, I've had people on here that are like the coolest people in the world and then you start asking them about themselves and they're like, they relay it in the wackest way possible. I'm sorry, you know, like, and I'm like, damn bro, like I, like you, you know, but this is like it's like you got to work on your your everything. Like, yeah, you got to work on your your everything. It's part of that.
Speaker 2:So let me give you a secret to dealing with employees, or talking to people that may be on a different level than you. Pro tip is employ your wife.
Speaker 1:That's hilarious.
Speaker 2:At CrossFit Brave, our head coach is my wife, right. So she's worked here for six years, when I co-owned it to now solely owned it. And you want to talk about the level of communication that I have now when I go to talk to employees, it is risen like crazy. Because what are you supposed to do when you have to tell your wife that she's not doing a good job or struggling with something? And then you're like, hey, when I see you tonight, like let's have some me and you time right Like hey, when I see you tonight, like let's have some me and you time.
Speaker 1:right, right, yeah, you got to really deliver that the best way possible, but also like to get the point across, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so really like that has been one of the best things for me is working with her. Now, I love working with her. She's an unbelievable coach. She could easily be on seminar staff if she cared to. But, like, you have to deliver rough messages and you have to talk and communicate and you get a little bit more pushback because they're your spouse and they can give you a little bit more pushback. But it's been a really cool experience for me because now my communication is way better, because now I got to deliver this to the hardest person that I know to deliver bad news to or good news to. And it just makes it easier when I go to my other two business partners in my other gym and go, hey, I got bad news, let's talk about this. Like it's so much easier to talk to them because like I just I can leave it there and not see them for a little bit. Right, right, right.
Speaker 1:Right, you get a little wait time and even avoid it if you really really need to. You know, start checking schedule, stuff like that, switching around some clients and stuff if you need to. But on some of that, note right, um, back in 2015-16, the first gym that you take over co-ownership of, is it a crossfit affiliate?
Speaker 2:it is.
Speaker 1:It is a crossfit brave so did you have to make yourself the license of record there? Did you have to do that whole process? Tell me about what it was like getting into affiliate ownership from your communication with crossfit hq now in the beginning yeah.
Speaker 2:So early on, hq was like have your licensing agreement, sign the paperwork, pay us and come to the CrossFit Games if you want. I was the licensee because at the time, you could only have one affiliate under one name, right? So every head coach at each gym had to have the licensee, and I basically just filled this thing out line that was on with my profile for doing the Open every year, outline that was on with my profile for doing the open every year, and that was it. And what people don't know, though, is it's a marketing expense, that's all. It is right. They do a lot more stuff now. They give newer people a lot more things, but for everybody that's been doing it for five years and beyond, it's marketing. So this year, when they raised the rate from 3,000 to 4,500, I was like, oh okay, that's still a pretty cheap marketing expense to get you know five to 10 new people to walk in your door because you're in proximity of where they've moved.
Speaker 1:Like that's a no brainer.
Speaker 1:I mean, like people out there may underestimate how important a recognizable brand is to attach to your name, because I mean, if you add athletics or fitness or anything like that, you could take away CF and just be Brave Fitness out on your signs, but like there's no cachet built into that. You know, like you, people might drive by and wonder what it is versus if I put frostbit brave like, okay, brave is our identity. Frost it's what they're doing in there, you know. So that's one of the things that you're paying for. So yeah, you, you get your, your license back. Then they're like yo go do your thing now. So you're, you're picking up most of what you're doing like business-wise from your own research and stuff. Now you have stayed an affiliate as they're expanding more and more with your business mind. Tell me about the things that you see them doing. You know, like, what direction are they going in? What do you think they need to do? More of all those different things?
Speaker 2:things. So I think marketing is the thing that CrossFit HQ needs to get back to, because everybody used to love the hype of all the CrossFit content that's out there. We're mainly in a content society right now and if you think back to it, all of the really good athletes a long time ago Jason Kalipa, rich Froning, chris Spieler they all pushed CrossFit instead of their own brand, their own programming, their own this, their own that, and I think that's the thing that CrossFit is missing now. I don't care that the affiliate budget went up, right. I don't care that I paid $1,500 more, because I run a successful business and I understand business now, right, but from their side, right, they have a hurdle to jump through with what happened at the games this year.
Speaker 2:But jumping back on it, if you want people to get re-excited about it, you have to show them the beauty of what happens inside the gym and then what people's road to the games on, because those are the two things that they want to see. They want to see everyday success and they want to see what are the elite athletes doing that I want to jump on the bandwagon for which makes me excited about CrossFit, which makes me into CrossFit, makes me want to go to the CrossFit games because I want to see what the best can do. That's why I watch the NFL, right. I don't watch peewee football all the time, but I love a good peewee football story. Right, and that's the. That's the two aspects that I think they could do a much better job on, and I think I think CrossFit could move back into the limelight once they can kind of move past what happened at the games and everything gets sorted out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I saw just this morning that they're hiring a new. They're trying to hire a new social media not social media a marketing manager, so to do email campaigns and stuff like that. They've been taking a lot of heat for the small mistakes that are popping up and all that stuff, but it's a that's what it's going to be when you're you're doing like this generation's version of print, right, right, no more newspapers where you're checking it a thousand times before you print it out. Now you're you're typing it up and then sitting down on your cell phone. Much easier to make a mistake on stuff like that oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And and that's another thing right, keep stuff secret better. You know what I mean. Like, right, every year it seems like the open gets released before the open's supposed to be released.
Speaker 1:So, like, keep it open the whole the whole thing, the open games, like the whole, the whole way. Yeah, what what's your opinion on? No, let me ask like this so you said when you first got started in 2016,. They said, okay, you paid, you signed your name here and you're a gym now and Glassman has a quote where he talks about the cream will rise to the top. The best will be able to figure their way out, kind of like you did become successful and then be a flagship for the brand.
Speaker 1:Is it better to have 200 affiliates let's make it a low number, right, and 15 of them are all super high level. They're going to go last for the next 15 years, but the other 85 are falling off and being replaced or is it better to and that they're able to have that kind of like identity? Everyone's able to do their own thing? Or your, what are these things called F45, your SoulCycle, where you have the franchise model? Okay, this is where you need to have your location. This is the paint color, this is the equipment. It's going to be our equipment. We're going to sell it now to you, right? Do you think if CrossFit went that route, is that a good option for the overall brand?
Speaker 2:I don't think it would be, because I think CrossFit is so individualized in its nature. I think you'd have hard pressed. It'd be nice to have help, but I don't think you can do it with the way the model is. I think when you look at the world of crossfit as affiliates go, we're at a point where the cream is rising to the top and several gyms are selling, getting re-bought out, rebranded, uh, but new gyms are still coming and also franchising within like a, like a kalipa, you know, maintains crossfit affiliates but has like multiple I mean like yourself you have multiple crossfit gyms, you know right.
Speaker 2:I think that is now becoming the option and I think it's more lucrative as it, when you have the people. I don't think if crossfit went a specific way, because they already tried to do that. The guy left CrossFit and opened Iron Tribe.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where's Iron Tribe now?
Speaker 1:What's that other one? What did Fitzgerald do, frank? What's the name of his shit? He's got man I don't remember the name of this podcast, dude but Fitzgerald OPT's got something too, and it's like crossfit stuff, but personal training, like instead of classes right.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of those models out there the the beauty of crossfit, I think, is the individual of the community, and I don't think, if you, it would make it easier for people to just hey, I'm, I'm going to buy one of these, I'm going to open it, I'm going to hire the people. I don't think it would make it better. I think that right now, we're at a really good point to where the high level people that are doing CrossFit, as far as owning affiliates and doing the community well, are doing a great job, and now we're actually finally getting more resources than we've ever had to keep them at a higher position. One of the things that I think most affiliates struggle with is business management. Yeah, and I'll be the first to say that, like my first five years, I had no idea.
Speaker 1:I was going to learn it.
Speaker 2:I was the guy that ran the in-person side, and so learning the back end side of it now, which is kind of more my passion now, is really exciting. But I can teach people tons of stuff to do in their own business that they would have no idea, because nobody teaches it to you anywhere.
Speaker 1:Right, and what we're talking about is that if you do go that model, then in the beginning you learn a base level of those things before you're able to operate business, keeping the individualistic model we have right now. Um, we could get to don fall's goal of 30 30 million. Is that what he said? Something like that yeah, crossfitters by whatever year. Do you think that we could even count that number? Right, because how, what's a crossfitter? Am I a crossfitter if I'm like you in the beginning and I'm doing it with my buddy at his garage or at the gym? Am am I a CrossFitter if I do the open? Am I a CrossFitter if I go to the games? Am I a CrossFitter if I don't do the open but I go to local competitions? You know, like, can we get to that number and can we even count that number if there is no model like we're talking about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Dawn's original thing for 30 million people was actually add affiliates, and I think if you do that, the affiliate model that you need has to be massive, and I don't know if you still give the right product on the floor when you have the model like that. I don't have space in my gym for 40 athletes every class, right, but at but at 40 athletes for 10 classes, you know that's 400 members that come in just on a daily basis, which means I probably have somewhere between. I probably have 600 members at the gym. Now you multiply that. I mean, how many affiliates does it take to get 30 million? 30 million might be a 30, 20 year goal, you know, is that realistic? I don't think that number's realistic. I think you want to look more in the like five to 10 million range. But even at that range right now you're talking every affiliates got 200 members. A 200-member affiliate does incredibly well, right, and you can make an incredible living off of 200 members.
Speaker 1:And 250 members is going to be. I mean, probably a quarter in personal training, a fifth of that, something like that. So all that revenue in there. The other side of it is, too. You're talking about just the people in classes, but then you need the hours of the day to train the coaches, hire these coaches and all that stuff and then do coaches development with them. To keep up with 600 members. You know you're going to have classes that size and all those different things.
Speaker 1:And if you have a 600 person gym, you probably five to six full-time people that work for you. I was gonna say full-time yeah, then probably like a 15 person, uh, um roster, you know, yeah, so right now.
Speaker 2:So cross the brave has just over 200 members. Um, we have myself and my wife are the two kind of full-time people here. Mine's's kind of part-time, full-time, but she's a full-time. We have about a staff of 10 other coaches that coach for us and we do almost no personal training, so we have a great affiliate. I mean, the people here are family and we treat everybody like family. So that's. Another big aspect to it is that when you grow to a certain amount like you have to have people that make everybody feel as if they're family and that needs more full time people like we're going to hire a second full time person, hopefully in the new year, that will have a very specific role in what they do and coach class. So what's?
Speaker 1:your on ramp program like like bringing new members on and new coaches. Let's talk about members first.
Speaker 2:Members first.
Speaker 1:So one thing that we offer Like no CrossFit experience the walks of the gym.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they have two options. First option if you want to join CrossFit classes because all of our classes are built on new people to games athletes you can just join class. We offer a free month. Try the gym out, see if we're the family that you want. If you don't, doesn't hurt my feelings. If you do, you got a free month and then you sign up for your membership. If you are nervous about starting class, we do have an on-ramp program. That does cost it a. It's a few 30 minute sessions with our head coach. Um, that does cost extra but you get a little pre-warm up into into kind of what we're looking for. But in every class we teach everybody gym etiquette. We teach everybody what we want. Sign up for classes, show up on time. You know, don't put up, don't put the equipment away while other people are going. So in every class our coaches are well-trained for new people, that's awesome, like that's what we love to hear.
Speaker 1:Coach-led hour right, like everything from the warmup, the brief fade all the way down to the cool down, all that stuff. Like when I'm, when I walk into across the gym, that's what I'm looking for. You know, coach to be intentive throughout that whole hour. And then how do you get new coaches up to speed? Like, what's your process like for that? Do you have something laid out or do you just kind of see where they're at and keep take them further?
Speaker 2:Well, most of the coaches we kind of know where they're at, because we require you to be a member for three months before you can coach for us. And if you coach at Brave, you coach at Brave. You don't coach at another CrossFit gym. Even if you're trying to get paid by everybody, it's totally fine, you can coach at that gym. You can coach at six other gyms, but you can't coach for me unless you just coach for me. I say that because you got to be in the community, right? And if you're coaching and people see you and you don't work out, you don't believe in the program, you don't follow the program. Why are you coaching at my CrossFit gym? So I'm very adamant about that. So you got to be a member of the gym for at least three months before you can start our 12-week coaches training program.
Speaker 2:12 weeks, dope Well, 12 weeks and it starts you from. You can only do this to two coaches, which is myself and my wife. You shadow us and it takes you from literally being my shadow for an entire class to taking portions of class, to coaching your whole class, and so we evaluate you. We talk about things you do good, bad, like when I take class. I give all my coaches feedback after class. Here's what I liked, here's what I didn't like, and that's my wife included. And at the end of take class, I give all my coaches feedback after class. Here's what I liked, here's what I didn't like, and that's my wife included. And at the end of my class I asked my wife hey, what did you not like about my class? So I can get better too.
Speaker 1:Right, that's super invaluable man, Like I know so many people out there that are in it or are not in that situation. Right, they're just going in coaching the class, All situation. Right, they're just going in coaching the class, All right. I think it was good. Members might give me a high five afterwards, but you know they're like, uh, that's just it. You know there's no after action plan and there's no follow-up to any of their classes that they coach.
Speaker 2:You know Well, remember this right Every certification that you take for fitness is a weekend course, right? Crossfit just happens to do a weekend course that you move a little bit more than your NIMS certification or any of these other certifications. So with CrossFit being one that moves, it's still a weekend course. I take my level one it's a weekend. I take my level two it's a weekend. I've now been coached for four days, but outside of that you have to have coaches that learn from somebody. So, being the highest level at the gym, you've got to be able to give your coaches feedback as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, and this has been a great conversation and I'm excited for this answer. Next, on this question dude, what are you hungry for? What are you like up to now? What's really motivating you to keep going?
Speaker 2:So I actually do quite a bit of things, but I like the business side of the small gym or small business area. So I actually just started a business consulting company that does small business consulting. So if you own a small business and you want to learn how to, my slogan is going to be learn how to live pre-taxed. So you're going to get taxed, right, but how do you live pre-taxed? And so I've, through my three years of owning both businesses, learned a bunch of strategies in order to save as much as I can on taxes. What's a business expense, what's not? Who do you go to to save time? Who do you go to to save money? Like, what things do you need? So I like to teach people that, and I was doing it for free for a while and people were like, oh, what's your hourly rate? And I was like I don't have one.
Speaker 2:I don't like doing this, and so a few buddies were like hey, I would pay you for your time, so I just made a company that would do business consulting. What's the company name? Again, it's called ERO Consulting. The E is the event, the R is your reaction, the O is the outcome. You can only control your reaction, oh yeah, you're up and running already. I just started it. I am taking clients, so I have a business account and everything, but I haven't made the website yet Like it. Literally, I formed it this month.
Speaker 1:That's dope yeah.
Speaker 2:Hey, the next part of the journey is going on right now build each gym that I have and each community that I have the best I can, from the mentoring side to my head coaches and to my coaches that are here. So I try to be as present as I can. I show up to both gyms. I work out of one of them so, like the office that I'm in now is in my primary gym, brave. But I go down to HSP once a week just to say hi to people, see everybody. But I go down to HSP once a week just to say hi to people, see everybody. I try to do as much as I can, but you know I do that there's some nonprofit stuff that I'm involved in, so I try to have more diversified things, but still make sure that what is is true needs to get done.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah, man. So it sounds like you got a full plate over there. Are you still a firefighting right now?
Speaker 2:Still firefighting. Yep, I'm going. I'm in my 10th year, Damn 10 years.
Speaker 1:How long you plan to go for?
Speaker 2:That depends. I was gonna say you're gonna retire firefighter, I would like to do full 30. If life takes me another direction, to where things are just too busy um, because you know there's the the big factor that I have is time right, If you do a lot of things, there's always time constraints, and so things that are important to me is like spending time with my wife when we have kids, spending time with kids. So there'll be an amount of money that you can make. That'll take certain time aspects away, and when that time comes, that's when I'll figure out what my best avenue to go is.
Speaker 1:I lied, this is the last one. Follow up yeah, exactly Exactly. And something else I've talked a lot about, especially in the first year of the podcast, is finding the flow state For me. Me coaching, um, weightlifting and gymnastics, but a class in general makes me feel in a flow state, podcasting with someone that I'm interested in, it makes me feel in a flow state water, and it silences my like adh brain too, my adhd brain too. Like where I can have some moments of peace, where it's only one thing. I'm focusing on, you, focusing on what do you think is something like that for you? You give us your top one thing, your top whatever kind of things, like what makes you silent brain able to focus.
Speaker 2:Uh, so I have to actually set timers. I I make a list and I set timers. Those are the two things that I do because I know I can sit for so long and I can work for so long. And my list is I try to make a list every day of everything that I'm going to do or accomplish and that's down to eat breakfast, have a second cup of coffee. Like podcast coaches meeting coach 430 class, I write everything on a list every day.
Speaker 2:I keep it in my sweet little CrossFit book here and so like but I mean, I also take notes in here, so it's got some stuff too. But I write the date down and I write everything I need to do. That way, when I go, okay, I've had a little bit of a break, what am I supposed to do next? I can look at it and I go okay, I've had a little bit of a break, what am I supposed?
Speaker 1:to do next? I can look at it.
Speaker 2:And I go oh, that's fast. Oh, I didn't eat. I need to go eat. I'll work a full day, drink three cups of coffee, and then my wife will be like hey, how many times you eat today? And I'll be like I brought a bunch of food but I didn't eat a thing, right?
Speaker 1:right, I'm at 30 grams of protein right now.
Speaker 2:I've had 150 calories and I've coached six classes. You know something like that. That's yeah. The other thing that I've realized is that I need time and breaks, and so I bought this like little silly timer that off amazon. It's like a little circle timer, yes, you basically just like put one in there there and you go, and then it starts timing.
Speaker 1:Damn.
Speaker 2:And I basically leave it by there and I'll look down. I'll be like, okay, how much time do I got left. Then all of a sudden it goes off. What I used to do sometimes when I knew I had stuff to do, I get up. I would do. I would try to hit like two sets of like 15 pushups or throw in some Lou raises with some dumbbells. I was some plates that I got in here and then sit back down, start another timer and get back to work.
Speaker 1:That's cool, dude, sounds like to me. The answer is like structure, you know, for you it helps you to really focus in and don't do stuff, man. Well, david, it's been a great conversation, bro, sitting down chatting. Thanks for coming on. Do you have anything else at the end of the combo you have for the people here? Anything you want to tell them?
Speaker 2:Anything else you want to shout out. If you want, follow me on Instagram it's Coach D Needham, you can find it. I'll send you all this stuff so you can post it with it. But if you need business advice, let me know. I'm pretty smart when it comes to taxes and bookkeeping and all that stuff and you know, can save lots of money because I've done it in my own life and it's more fun than you think. But if you're not good at it, hit me up.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, I love that out there. Everyone needs to save money, so it's a good resource to go check out Dogs out there. It's been another great episode. We're getting it out of here, peace.